Public Services in India

Date: 3 March 1913
Location: Bombay
Speaker: Aga Khan III
Source: Speeches of Aga Khan III – K K Aziz

Full Text

India Bombay: 3 March 1913 Views on recruitment to the Indian Civil Service – syllabus – bring Sanskrit and Arabic on the same level as Greek and Latin encourage Persian literature, Indian administration and Indian history – system unfair to the Indian students – simultaneous examinations in India and England – subjects of Native States should be given opportunity to enter – curriculum for examin ations – Indian aspirations for a share in the administration period of probation – inadequate representation of Muslims in the Provincial Civil Services – salaries in the Provincial Civil Services a college for Englishmen in India – the question of a fixed per centage of posts for Indians – possibility of recruiting members of Indian royal families – the issue of sending Indians to England for training – granting of scholarships – advantages of teaching Englishmen oriental culture.

PRESENT:

THE RIGHT HoN. THE LoRn ISLINGTON, K.C.M.G., D.s.o. (Chairman).

THE EARL oF RoNALDSHAY, M.P.

Sir MuRRAY HAMMICK, K.c.s.I., c.I.E.

Sir THEODORE MoRISON, K.C.I.E.

Sir VALENTINE CHIROL.

MAHADEV BHASKAR CHAUBAL, Esq., c.s.I.

GoPAL KRISHNA GoKHALE, Esq., c.I.E.

WALTER CULLEY MADGE, Esq., c.I.E.

FRANK GEORGE SLY, Esq., c.s.I. jAMES RAMSAY MACDONALD, Esq., M.P.

And the following Assistant Commissioners:- 416

JosEPH JoHN HEATON, Esq., I.C.s, Judge of the High Court of Judicature, Bombay.

RAo BAHADUR RAMCHANDRA NARAYAN JoGLEKAR, Assistant to Commissioner, Central Division, Poona.

RAGHUNATH GANGADHAR BHADBHADE, Esq., Judge of Small Cause Court, Poona.

M. S.D. BuTLER, Esq., c.v.o., C.I.E. (Joint Secretary).

His Highness AGA SuLTAN MuHAMMAD SHAH, AGA KHAN, G.c.s.I., G.C.I.E.

Written answers relating to the Indian Civil Service. 27034 ( 1). What is your experience of the working of the present system of recruitment by open competitive examination in England for the Indian Civil Service? Do you accept it as generally satisfactory in principle?- I accept the present system of recruit ment by open competition for the Indian Civil Service as generally satisfactory subject to reservations contained in answers to subsequent questions. I think that the principle of open competition should always be maintained. 27035 (2). In what respects, if any, do you find the present system faulty in detail, and what alterations would you suggest? – I think there should be a change in the syllabus and the marks should be fixed in such a manner as to give no cause of complaint to Indians that they are labouring under a disadvantage. I would give the number of marks for Sanskrit and Arabic on the same level as that for Greek and Latin. I would also encourage a study of Persian literature in the same manner by giving Persian the same marks as French and German. The rudiments of Indian Administration and Indian History, particularly of recent years, should be given a prominent place in the syllabus of studies. 27036 (3). Is the system equally suitable for the admission of “Natives of India” and of other natural-born subjects of His Majesty? If not, what alteration do you recommend? – The system is most unfair to Indian students as for obvious reasons it prevents many deserving and capable students from competing and thus deb ars them from their proper share in the administration of the country. 27037 (5). If you do not consider the present system of recruit ment by an open competitive examination to be satisfactory in principle, please state what alternative you would propose? – I would adopt the system of recruitment to the exigencies of modern times so as to give a wider scope for satisfying the legit imate aspirations of Indians and the fullest development of their talents. 27038 ( 6). In particular, what would be your opii,lion regarding a system of simultaneous examinations in India and in England, open in both cases to all natural-born subjects of His Majesty? I am in favour of a simultaneous examination in England and India. I would give full effect to the House of Commons’ Resol ution ofJune 1893 “that all competitive examinations heretofore held in England alone for the appointments to the Civil Services of India shall henceforth be held simultaneously in India and England, such examinations in both countries being identical in nature, all who compete being finally classified in one list according to merit.” I would strongly advocate the holding of examinations in India not only for the Indian Civil Services, but for other competitive services as well, such as the Medical, the Forest and the Police. It is unfair that examinations for Indian Civil Services should be held only in England. Wheri the principle of competitive examination for civil appointments in India was introduced sixty years ago, there were no educational institutions in India and therefore it was natural to leave the holding of simultaneous examination in India out of consideration. But the contact of the East with the West has profoundly changed the aspect of Indian education, and during the last half century there has been remarkable educational progress in India. By creating a Special Department of Education, the Government of India have shown their earnest desire to give a vigorous and systematic impetus to education. The establishment of various useful Faculties in recent years, will open up careers to Indian students outside the Government Service and the legal pro fession, and I, for one, have no hesitation in saying that the Indian Civil Service will in no way be swamped by Indians. Nor will its morale deteriorate in any way. The brightest sons of India – Telang, Ranade, Gokhale and others – were the product of English education in India. As I have said, the simultaneous examination in England and India should be identical in regard to the standard of test, the examination papers, marks, etc. If the Indian Civil Service examination is held in India, it will open the doors to promising and talented students, who, owing to their limited means and the disabilities entailed upon them in consequence of their stay in a foreign land for their studies, and the risks involved in failure, are unable to proceed to England to compete for the Service. It will do away with any feeling of discontent that may exist at the idea that the-Indian Civil Service has been kept as a preserve for Englishmen and that the children of the soil are shut out from their proper and legitimate share in controlling the administration of the country.

As I have stated above, there is no fear of the Service being overrun by Indians. At present in the Bombay Presidency, out of 149 posts held by the I.C.S. there are only nine held by Indians, including two Statutory Civilians. This works out at something like 6 per cent. of the Civil posts in the Presidency being held by Indians. Again, in the whole of India, of 1,294 I.C.S. only 56 are Indians and the remaining 1,238 are Europeans. This is a very meagre proportion, and if the simultaneous examination is held in India, I do not think that more than 15 or 20 per cent. at the most of Indians would be recruited by means of the system of competitive examination. I am convinced that the so-called danger of the Service being swamped by Indians is imaginary.

The fear that the Service will be overcrowded by Indians is based on the fallacious idea that Indians have the wonderful gift of passing examinations by means of cramming. 27039 ( 7). What would be your opinion with regard to filling a fixed proportion of the vacancies in the Indian Civil Service cadre by Natives of India, recruited by means of a separate examination in India, or by means of separate examinations in each province or group of provinces in India? If you favour such a scheme, what proportion do you recommend? – I do not think any proportion should be laid down. 27040 (9). If you are in favour of a system for the part recruit ment of the Indian Civil Service by Natives of India in India, do you consider that “Natives of India” should still be eligible for appointment in England? -Yes: I think so. I do not think that a very large number of candidates will pass in India through the simultaneous examination and I do not think it expedient or reasonable not to regard them as eligible for appointment in England if they pass the competitive examination. 27041 (10). Would you regard any system of selection in India which you may recommend for young men who are “Natives of India” as being in lieu of, or as supplementary to, the present system of promoting to listed posts officers of the Provincial Civil Service? If the former, what alteration, if any, would you recommend in the conditions governing the Provincial Civil Service? -~I think the present system of listed posts should con tinue: otherwise there would be no incentive to the Provincial Service men for greater efforts if they know that they have nothing higher to look forward to. They would not remain content, if they were depressed by the sense of knowledge that they cannot hope to rise any higher. 27042 ( 12). Are you satisfied with the present statutory defi nition of the term “Natives of India” in section 6 of the Government of India Act, 1870 (33 Viet., c.3), as including “any person born and domiciled within the Dominions of His M£tiesty in India, of parents habitually resident in India, and not estab lished there for temporary purposes only,” irrespective of whether such persons are of unmixed Indian descent, or of mixed European and Indian descent, or of unmixed European descent?

If not, state fully any proposals that you wish to make in regard to this matter? – I think the subjects of Native States and the aristocratic classes in Native States should be included in the definition so that they might have an opportunity of serving in the British Administration. 27043 (13). If the system of recruitment by open competitive examination in England is retained, state the age limits that you recommend for candidates at such examination, giving your reasons? – I think the present age limit should be retained. 27044 ( 14). What in your opinion is the most suitable age at which junior civilians recruited in England should commence their official duties in India? – I think 25 is the most suitable age at which junior civilians recruited in England should commence their official duties in India. 27045 (15). What age limits for the open competitive examin ation in England would best suit candidates who are Natives of India, and for what reasons? Do you recommend any differen tiation between the age limits for Natives of India and for other natural-hom subjects of His Majesty? – I think the same age as at present. I do not recommend any differentiation between the age limits for Natives of India and for other subjects of His M£tiesty. 27046 ( 16). What alterations, if any, do you recommend in the authorised syllabus of subjects and marks prescribed for the open competitive examination? – I would place the classical languages of India on the same footing as the classical languages of Europe in regard to the allotment of the number of marks. I would certainly include Persian and treat it on an equal level with French and German. I would also include a knowledge of rudi ments of Indian Administration and Indian History, particularly history of recent years. 27047 ( 17). Is any differentiation in the subjects for the open competitive examination in England desirable/between candi dates who are Natives of India and other candidates? If so, state them and give reasons? – I do not think any differentiation in the subjects for the open competitive examination in England is desirable, between Indians and other candidates. I would insist on absolutely the same test for both: though option must of course be allowed in such subjects as modern languages. 27048 (19). Do you consider that a minimum proportion of European subjects of His Majesty should be employed in the higher posts of the Civil Administration? If so, to what proportion of the posts included in the Indian Civil Service cadre do you consider that Natives of India might under present conditions properly be admitted? – I would not fix any proportion. I do not think that the Indian element in the Service would ever be alarmingly great. I would certainly be sorry to see the British character of the administration disappear: but to satisfy the legit imate aspirations of Indians for a larger share in the administration I would throw open to them, when they are found fit and eligible, such appointments as are generally held by Eng lishmen. They should be promoted to the Commissionership, to the responsible posts in the Secretariats, or even to Lieutenant Governorship if they are fit and senior. 27049 (20). Do you accept as generally satisfactory in principle the present system under which Natives of India are recruited for posts in the Indian Civil Service cadre partly through the medium of an open competitive examination in England and partly by special arrangement in India? – The recruitment should be by simultaneous examination in England and India. 27050 (21). Do you consider that the old system of appoint ment of “Statutory Civilians” under the Statute of 1870 should be revived, and if so, what method of recruitment would you recommend? – I am not in favour of the revival of Statutory Civilians. 27051 ( 22). If the system of recruiting military officers in India for posts in the Indian Civil Service cadre has been stopped or has never existed in your Province, would you advise its re introduction or introduction, as the case may be, and if the system should be introduced or re-introduced, to what extent, in your opinion, should it be adopted?- No. 27052 (24). What is your opinion of the system by which certain posts, ordinarily held by members of the Indian Civil Service, are declared to be posts (ordinarily termed listed posts) to which members of the Provincial Civil Service can properly be appointed? – I would promote the members of the Provincial Service to listed posts. That would improve the morale of the Provincial Service. 27053 (29). Do you consider that candidates recruited for the Indian Civil Service by open competitive examination should undergo a period of probation before being admitted to the Service? – Yes: one year should be spent either at Oxford or Cambridge, and one year in travelling in Europe or America. 27054 (33). Do you think it desirable to start, at some suitable place in India, a college for the training of probationers of the Indian Civil Service, and possibly of other Indian Services recruited in England? – I think a college started in some suitable centre like Bombay, or Calcutta, would be likely to be more useful for all the Indian Services. I think young officers should not be first of all sent to districts where they are apt to form initial opinions of India and Indians based on faulty deductions drawn from observing the lower classes of society with whom alone in such districts they are brought into contact. 27055 ( 45). Do you consider that the exchange compensation allowance introduced in 1893, eligibility for which depends on nationality or domicile, should be abolished, and if so, under what conditions? Should such abolition apply to officers already employed or be restricted to future entrants? – Exchange com pensation should not be paid in future. It should be continued to those who get it at present.

Written answers relating to the Provincial Civil Service. 27056 (53). Do you consider that recruitment fora Provincial Civil Service should ordinarily be restricted to residents of the Province to which it belongs? – Yes. 27057 (54). Are all classes and communities duly represented in your Provincial Civil Service? Do you consider that this is desirable, and what arrangements do you recommend to secure this object? – I consider that it is desirable that all classes and communities should be duly represented in the Provincial Service. I do not think that the Muhammadans are adequately represented in the Provincial Civil Service. This should be rem edied, especially in the Provinces like Bengal and Sind where the Muhammadan population are in the mcgority. 27058 (60). Are the existing rates of pay and grading in the Provincial Civil Service of your Province adequate to secure the desired qualifications in the officers appointed? If not, what alterations do you recommend? – I think the salaries should be increased in view of the improved standard of living and the general rise in prices which has recently taken place in India. 27059 (61). Do you approve of the arrangement by which officers of the Provincial Civil Service holding listed posts draw salary approximately at the rate of two-thirds of the pay drawn in the same posts by members of the Indian Civil Service? If not, what rates do you suggest for the various appointments? – I think they should get the same salary as the members of the Civil Service get for the same posts when they hold them.

His Highness the AGA KHAN, called and examined. 27060. (Chairman). Your Highness is in favour of the present system of open competition? -Yes, on principle. 27061. You do not, however, consider it suitable for Indians?

No, not quite. 27062. And to meet this Indian disability you favour the estab lishment of simultaneous examinations in England and in India? -Yes. 27063. In offering this proposal you make no reservation of any kind in favour of what is called a European minimum? – I do not think it is necessary. I think it is certain that there will always be more than a minimum, so far as I can look ahead. 27064. I take it that you would be sorry to see the British character of the Administration disappear? – Yes, very. 27065. You are convinced that not more than 15 or 20 per cent., at the most, of Indians would actually be recruited?- I do not think anything like that number would be recruited for the present, though I think it might happen some day long ahead. 27066. You would regret it if the European element were to disappear or were to become a negligible quantity? -Yes; I should be very sorry if it came even to one-half or two-thirds. 27067. Holding that view, what is your objection to having the matter put on a clear footing? – I really think the contingency is so remote that it is needless to stir things up. I would “let sleeping dogs lie.” I do not see that there is any need of a guarantee.

There is no danger of it. But once you found that there was such a danger I should certainly put a guarantee on. 27068. Your main ground for advocating simultaneous examinarion, apart from the expense to the Indian in going to England, is the educational progress which has taken place in India? There are many reasons for it, and that is one of them. 27069. That is one of your chief reasons? -No, it is not one of the chief reasons. It is one of the reasons. 27070. Do you consider that the advance in education has reached a stage to justify the expectation that some Indian candi dates may attain success in the near future in the Indian Civil Service Examination? – That is for the Education Department.

On the whole, yes, I think some Indian candidates may get through. 27071. Are you familiar with the standard of education in the Bombay University?- No, I am not really familiar with it, though I know something about it. 27072. Do you know to what extent the standard there would compare with the standard of the Indian Civil Service examin ation?- No. 27073. Would you be prepared to say whether that standard is as high? – No, probably it is not. I hear that it is so much more difficult to pass into the Indian Civil Service. 27074 . If it is not up to that standard, and we have had evidence that it is not in certain branches, would not a candidate to succeed have to go to a crammer? – It is for the student to work very hard at it himself. 27075. So far as I understand you, you do not contemplate that cramming establishments will be instituted in India? – I daresay that in time there will be crammers. 27076. Do you think that the introduction of crammers into India would be to the advantage of India, regarded either from an educational or from a political point of view? – I do not think they would do any harm. It would be one other way of getting knowledge. 27077. It is not a very satisfactory form of knowledge, is it?- I have never been to a crammer myself, and therefore I do not know much about it. 27078. Although you have not been to one, you are probably familiar with the effect of cramming on the educational position of a young man. Would you not run the danger of increasing, to a very considerable G gree, the number of what I may term “artificially educated young men”? – I do not think it is very probable. 27079. Do you not think that a large number of Indian young men would manage to get into the Indian Civil Service?- If that happened, then you would put a minimum on, and you would change the way of getting in. The moment the danger arose one would deal with it. 27080. You would be prepared to deal with the danger of a large number getting in? – Yes, if the danger arose, certainly, at the first sight of it. 27081. Do you think that that will be an appropriate moment to deal with the danger? – I really do not regard it as a danger which is so very approximate as to deal with it now. 27082. Assuming that there was a danger, however remote, would you say that it was better to wait until the time had arrived when a larger number of Indian students had been successful in the examination to deal with the situation or would you deal with the problem in the early days when you were instituting the examination? – There are two alternative ways of dealing with it.

One is now to take reasonable precautions; and the other is to wait until the danger arises, and then deal with it. 27083. That is my point. You think it is better to wait until the danger arises? – Yes, simply because I think the danger is so · remote. I have gone through the Syllabus of getting into it. I think it is very improbable, anyhow for five years, that anybody will get in through India. 27084. You think that, perhaps, in five years individuals might do so? -Yes, they might; and then there would be ample time to deal with the matter. 27085. You do not see any difficulty in the way of imposing a reservation at that particular moment? – I think the principle is admitted by most sensible people that the spirit of the Service, and its numbers, must be British. I admit that most heartily; and that being the case, I do not see why it should not be put in when the danger arises rather than putting it in beforehand. 27086. It is because you have so heartily admitted this that I have asked you whether you do not consider it a wiser and a better policy, in the interests of India, to impose the reservation now sooner than later? – Certainly, if the danger arose there must be this reservation; and it is for Statesmen, rather than for a witness, to say whether it is better to put that reservation now or later. 27087. “Sufficient to the day is the evil thereof”?-Yes. Other wise, on principle, if there was any danger of its becoming more than 20 per cent. I should certainly be one of the first to ask for legislation about it. 27088. You suggest that there should be variations in the Syl labus of the examination? -Yes; I have suggested _some very slight variations. 27089. Variations in the direction of including subjects which would be more favourable for Indians? – I should like to put Persian, with 500 marks, on the same level as French and German. To do so would not be such a very great thing. And I should also like to put Sanskrit and Arabic on the same level as Greek and Latin. With regard to Sanskrit and Arabic, I do not say that it is so very necessary. I do not hold very strong views upon that; but I think that Persian ought to be placed on the same level as French and German. 27090. That, of course, would add materially to the chance of Indians being successful in the examination?- It would not do so very materially. It is only 500 marks, I believe., or something like that. 27091. You are satisfied, I believe, with the present age-limit for the examination? – Yes. 27092. If it could be shown that the present age-limit is unsuit able for obtaining the best British officers, would you favour a reduction of the age? – No, I would not, because I cannot admit the first premises. 27093. You do not agree with the view which some people hold that the age is too high?- No. It is no use bringing boys out as administrators. 27094. You do not regard it as of importance to secure for the Indian Civil Service Indians who are representatives of the various Provinces and communities? – Provinces I have ·not thought about very seriously. So far as communities are concerned, I do not know; but I would not have any communal separation. 27095. You do not think there would be any difficulty in posting an Indian from one Province to another?- No. I think it would be rather a good thing. 27096. We have had a good deal of evidence during our enquiry to the effect that the Muhammadan community would suffer under a system of simultaneous examination. You do not share that view? – I think as long as you have got examinations it ought to be an open door; otherwise you would go about it in another way. 27097. I observe in your answer to question (54) that you advocate that Muhammadans should be recruited in greater numbers for the Provincial Civil Service? -Yes. 27098. What distinction do you draw between the Indian Civil Service and the Provincial Civil Service in this respect? – First, in the Indian Civil Service the present system does not guarantee any limit, jt would be introducing a new principle into it; while, in the Provincial Civil Service, there is more or less,,. a moral understanding that certain Muhammadans get in in practice.

That is one thing. Secondly, one expects from a man who has got into the Indian Civil Service (and has had the brains to get in) a certain greater liberality of view than from a man who gets into the Provincial Civil Service. Thirdly, the Provincial Civil Service man has to deal very much with the smaller questions which are not likely to come before Government, or before public opinion, or before the Press; so that he can favour his own people more than a man high up who has to deal with more important questions. 27099. Do you anticipate that Muhammadans will soon stand a fair chance with other classes and creeds in competitive examin ations?- No; I think their chance would be worse than it is now. 27100. You ask for an increase in the salaries of the officers of the Provincial Civil Services? – Yes. 27101. And you do so on the score of the improved standard of living, and the general rise in prices? – Yes. 27102. Can you tell us what you would regard as a suitable rise in salaries? – Prices have risen so much of late years. People with fixed incomes are not having a good time now as compared with people who have not got fixed incomes. I think a general rise in salary would be a good thing. 27103. Are you in favour of instituting a time-scale? -What does that mean? 27104. The automatic increase every year of pay in the various grades? – I have not considered it. I may say, however, that I should like to see Collectors get more than they do now, and also Government officers in big towns, and the Secretaries to Government who live in Bombay and Poona. It is absurd that they should get the same pay as they got 10, 15 or 20 years ago.

On the other hand, there are places where it is different. The rise in prices is greatest in the towns, and also where new social duties have arisen. 27105. You are not prepared to give us any details; but, generally, you would like to see better terms, as far as salaries are concerned, for the Service? – Yes, for all the officers who live in towns. 27106. (Sir Murray Hammick). I should like to as~ you a question with regard to the remark you made just now that you thought Muhammadans would be no worse off under simultaneous examination than they are now. Do you not think that out of the number of candidates who go home to prepare for the Indian Civil Service, Muhammadans bear a considerably larger pro portion to the total than they would be likely to bear to the total number of students who went up for simultaneous examination in India? – I think that for the first three or four years that might happen; but Muhammadans have woke up to sending boys to school. 27107. You think it would be only temporary?-I think it would be only temporary. 27108. You would agree, first, at all events, that Muhammadans in simultaneous examinations out here would be considerably more handicapped than they are in the examination at home? Honestly, I believe that for the first few years nobody would get in from simultaneous examination. 27109. So that it would not very much matter?- No; I do not think it very much matters. 27110. I take it that one of you·r objections to the exclusive way of getting into the Indian Civil Service by examination at home is that you think students who go home ruri a great deal of risk in their character and so on, by being sent to England to pass their examination, and their having to live under not very good supervision for three or four years before the examination takes place: I suppose that would be one of your objections to the present system? – I say that so far as their being two or three years in England, locked up, working hard at ·study, merely learning the thing up, they might just as well do it here. They would not, of course, get into touch with European life and people. The only danger I anticipate would be the cramming effect of it. 27111. You do not regard the dangers of student life in London as any great objection? – Those who go up for the Indian Civil Service have to work so hard at it that there is very little time for anything else. 27112. Supposing you cannot get simultaneous examinations, what would you think of the system which has been suggested to us of giving scholarships to selected boys much younger than at present, boys of thirteen and fourteen, and sending them home to public schools in England with, more or less, a guarantee that if they do not get into the Indian Civil Service, assuming their conduct was good, they would be provided for in other Services in this country? If that were possible, what would Your Highness think of a system of that kind? – I should be opposed to it. 27113. Do you think that parents would be ready to send their children home at that age? – Some might, and some might not.

Parsees probably would. 27114. What would be your objection to a scheme of that sort? – To begin with, I should say that it was for the parents, those who had made their money, and believed in that. I do not think that it is the business of the State to help parents to give luxuries to their children. I should say, let those parents who believed in that, pay for it. I should not oppose that, but I do not think it is the business of the State. 27115. You would not take the objection that these children would be too much Europeanised, and that they would come back too much out of touch with the people of this country? – I think that parents who are rich people might send their children to England. I would not object to that because when they come back here they will have, more or less, some concern in their own social life here as they would in England. If they have the means let them go; but if they have not the means, I do not see why the tax-payer should pay for it. 27116. I do not understand how you fit in your ages. You would not touch the present age. Do you think the present age is satisfactory? -Yes, I think, on the whole, that it is a good thing.

He has time to learn things. 27117. In answer to question (14) you say that you think 25 is a suitable age for Civilians to commence their duties? – Yes, to commence their duties. 27118. But in answer to question (29) you suggest that they should have two years in Europe; that one should be spent at Oxford or Cambridge, and one year in travelling about; and then in answer to question (33) you suggest a college out here?-Yes, a college out here, but only for Englishmen. 27119. That is what I wanted to get out. You intend that Eng lishmen should only have one year at home instead of two? Yes, on probation. 27120. One year at home, and then the college for Englishmen here?-Yes. 27121. Do you think it would be a good thing to shut up Englishmen in a college in one central place for ~o or three years? You say you think that young officers should not first of all be sent to districts where they are apt to form initial opinions of India and Indians based on faulty deductions. If you sent them and shut them up in a college in one part of India, they would not get any association with Indians during that period? – I would suggest about forty or fifty of them going on tour, and looking at the interesting things in the country. For instance, send them up to Agra, and so on, on tour in the same way as they do with the Staff College people. They send them to the battlefields. They would go in the same way, see the country, and learn its history, and so on. I think that would be a good thing; and in that way they would know more about the country. 27122. Probably one great objection to a scheme of that sort is that it would be rather expensive to keep a set of boys here at one college under the supervision of Europeans, and have them sent about the country and to mix with Indians of good society and see interesting places. It would be very nice for the boys, but rather expensive for the Government? – If the Government were ready to send boys to Rugby and Eton for their education, where they would have a good time, I do not see why they should not do as I suggest in this case, for these young fellows would be their own servants, and they would merit more. 27123. (Sir Valentine Chirol.) I should like to ask Your Highness further about what you regard as the effect of sending young Indian boys to England at an early age. You have, I suppose, made some observations ofyour own. You have, probably, followed the careers of a certain number of young men who have passed through that form of education. Do you regard the . result as unsatisfactory on the whole of sending boys to England to be educated young, and to have, what we call, a thorough English education? Do you think the results, when they have returned to India, have been unsatisfactory? – Yes, on the whole I think they have. It has not been sufficiently satisfactory as to be remarkable.

None of them have shone in any way. 27124. Do you know of instances where it has been remarkably unsatisfactory? – Yes, there is the instance of Arabinda Ghose. 27125. You have not personally come across cases which have been eminently satisfactory?- No, not one. 27126. On the other hand, you are extremely anxious, I under stand, to preserve in the administration what is called the “British tone”?- Not only British tone, but Englishmen. I know so far as to say that it must be essential not only that there should be British tone, but that Englishmen must be in a preponderating majority. That, I fully and sincerely admit. 27127. Supposing, for a moment, that you had to assign some limit to the number of Indians whom you think at the present moment it would be desirable to have in the administration of the country, what would be the percentage of Indians which you would be inclined to name?- Now, it is only 6 per cent. which is absurdly small, I think. 27128. Then what would you consider -to be reasonable? – For the next few years, I should say 10 per cent. 27129. And then you would have that revised from time to time? -Yes, naturally. Every decade or so it would have to be revised, a slight increase. 27130. But you think that at present 10 per cent. would be a reasonable percentage?-Yes. But as I do not think there is any danger of getting more I am not sure that, as a matter of tactics, it would be a good thing to have it. It is purely a tactical question. 27131. We are engaged in an enquiry which, it is to be hoped, may result in certain recommendations which will be, probably, for a series of years the basis for the recruitment of the members of the administrative services of this country. Do you not think it would be wiser at the present moment to take into consideration those possibilities (if the contingency does not arise, no harm is done) and to settle some sort of basis or limit which would last for a certain number of years, possibly subject to a time-scale on revision, rather than leave the question open, as you suggest, to chance, which would compel (should results arise, which you regard as improbable, but which might arise) the whole thing to be again revised? – In your question you used the words “few years.” I think that within a few years it is not only improbable, but impossible. I think that within the next five or ten years it is impossible that there would be anything more than 10 per cent. 27132. Do you think that it is impossible within the next twenty five years? – Twenty-five years in India is more than a generation. 27133. You must remember, after all, that the last Public Services Commission took place about twenty-five years ago, and therefore one may hope that there will be a certain finality for the recommendation of this Commission covering another generation. Do you think it is absolutely safe to leave that contin gency entirely out of our calculations? – This Commission has come out to study the whole problem, but this is only a small question. The moment you see so many Indians coming in, say after ten years, there might be Government Resolutions saying that after such and such a date only such and such a percentage may come in. I would deal with the matter by a Government Resolution rather than by a Commission of this kind. 27134. You think it would be easier for the Government of India to place a limitation, which would probably be unaccept able to many people, simply by way of a Resolution, than it would be for the Government of India to do so backed by the recommendations of a Commission such as ours with the full consideration of His Majesty’s Government at home? – I think this Commission might give the Government of India power to move by Resolution. You might say, for instance, in your recom mendations that the moment such and such a percentage got in the Government should deal with it. 27135. Going to another point, you are the spiritual head of numerous Muhammadan communities in India, are you not? Of one sect only. 27136. Numerous Muhammadans?- It is not very numerous in India, it is very small. 27137. It is not a community which is likely to furnish any large quota to the classes who may be expected to compete in the simultaneous examination? – Amongst Muhammadan com munities, it is a community which, for its numbers, will probably have more in proportion to any other. 27138. I ask you about your own community because you are more closely acquainted with the feelings of your own co:rnmunity than with those of Muhammadans at large. Is your community dissatisfied with the present system of administration of the Government? – No; they are a very loyal community. 27139. Are they not satisfied with the agencies through which the administration is carried on, the agency of the Civil Service? -They think it is a very good service, and all that; but they think there might be a few more Indians in it. That is the feeling, that after six years, 6 per cent. is a very small proportion. 27140. Do they think they would benefit by the possible import ation into the administration of a very large Hindu element which has no special interests in common with your community? – Certainly, if you put it that way, a very large mixture of Indians, _ 1 think the average man would rather be taken aback by it; but a small increase is quite different. 27141. You are anxious to preserve not only the large number of Englishmen, but also the British tone? -Yes. 27142. And you desire, I suppose, that the Indians who enter the administration should be, in regard to what are considered the best characteristics of Englishmen, on a level with them? Yes, or anyhow, aspiring to have the English spirit in their dealings with affairs. 27143. And you think that that can be as well acquired by education in India as by any education in England? – Looking around me, the men I have seen who have had most of this spirit were men who were brought up by the best Englishmen in India rather than men who have gone to England; so that, judging by that, I say you ought to get it just as well here after so many years. The men who have that desire, who have that spirit, most in their lives, are the men who have spent their early lives here, who have been educated here, and who afterwards went to Europe. 27144. You think that these men you have in your mind are not exceptional, but they are conspicuous representatives of a type which is becoming sufficiently general among the educated class in India? – Yes. What I say is this, that it was only the last generation which began to produce that type, so that probably in the next generation there will be more of them. That type, so far, has been more produced by men who have been brought up here, on the influence of their own family, and people, and religion, rather than by those men who have gone to England for their education. 27145. Looking around generally at the results of western edu cation in India amongst the young men of the present day, I should like to ask you whether you mean that the results are such as to promise a considerable increase in the number of Indians who can share the best characteristics of the English mind and English temper without having been to England? – I think when they are grown up they ought to go to England, when they can draw conclusions for themselves. I think they ought to see English life. 27146. The proposal which has been made by a great many witnesses to us is that opportunities should be furnished for the larger employment of Indians by increasing the number of listed posts to which access is obtained now from the Provincial Civil Service, and assimilating the position of Indians who have obtained those posts absolutely with the position of Civilians. Is that a recommendation which you would condemn? – In what way assimilating the position to the Civil Service; only in pay, or ~~~ . 27147 . That they should on being appointed to what are now called these listed posts become ipso facto members of the Indian Civil Service, in the cadre of the Civil Service, with that pay, and, I presume, the pension? – The pension would complicate things very much. 27148. But assuming that complication can be got over, would you condemn that? – Would they have the same prospects after wards of becoming Commissioners and Members of Council? 27149. That is the hypothesis. They would be assimilated entirely into the Indian Civil Service? – Then it would be a very good thing. It would bring in more from the Provincial Civil Service. It would give chances. Yes, I think it would be a good thing. 27150. Do you think that the proof given by men in the Provin cial Civil Service who have worked for a certain number of years, and have shewn in their administrative work the same qualities which we desiderate for the Indian Civil Service, would not afford a better qualification for entering into the Indian Civil Service than any competitive examination? – I think it would be a very good thing to have a certain amount of both sorts. 27151. Will you kindly answer my question? I will put it another way. Do you think that open competition would give a better guarantee for fitness to work in the Indian Civil Service than the fact that a man in the Provincial Civil Service has already for a certain number of years performed the work .of his post efficiently, and has actually displayed those characteristics which we all desiderate in the Indian Civil Service?-The man who has displayed that is naturally better. He has given the proof of his efficiency. You see the result of that; while the other, at the best, is a dark horse. 27152. Not that you believe absolutely that open competition is the one way of proving the efficiency of men in the Indian Civil Service?- So many men who have failed in the Indian Civil Service have proved themselves wonderful men at the Bar. 27153. There is only one other question I should like to ask you. I understand that you wish to give Persian literature the same marks as French and German? -Yes. 27154. Of course I need not say that you are quite acquainted with the part which French and German play in the culture of Western civilisation and progress. Do you think that for the pur poses of broadening the outlook of a young Indian student and familiarising him with the mind of the West, and with the thought of the Western world, Persian can afford, in any way, the same advantages as German or French?-Not for his mental equipment so far as the West is concerned. If you limit it to the West, no; but if you say for his general mental equipment, allowing that he has had a good education in English, and in the classical history of the West, I think the addition of the humanities of Persian literature would be as useful to him as the extra knowl edge of the West which he will get from French and German literature. 27155. It is not that you underrate the value of a knowledge of German and French? – I think that German and French are most excellent for Indians, but I think, especially for Indians, that a certain amount of knowledge of Persian would be of great importance. 27156. You would not describe German as it was described by a witness in Calcutta as a rising language in the way that the Bengali language is amongst Indian languages? – No, I would not. 27157. (Mr. Madge.) In your suggestions relating to the recruit ment of the Public Service, has this idea occurred to you, that the Commission may have to consider whether the interests of the great masses of this country run in the same direction as those of a small educated class, and that we may have to consider how far the conditions of recruitment bear upon that question? Are they the same in all respects, and if they are not, whether we have not to consider whether the recruitment which would serve one class would serve the great masses equally well? – The welfare of the nation is one and the same, I think. 27158. Do you think that the conglomeration of the peoples we find in India at the present moment constitute a nation in the ordinary sense of the term?- No, not in the European sense of the term, but in the geographical expression which we call India. 27159. But there may be divisions in that Empire, the interests of some portions of which do not run in exactly the same direc tion as those of others. And here I do not compare one Province with another, the great ignorant voiceless masses on the one hand, and the small educated class on the other. I do not say that their interests are different, but it is quite conceivable that they may be, and that Government, and this Commission, may have to consider the conditions of recruitment ~th reference to the difference between these two classes? – I think this place is like Russia. There is a small minority of educated people, and a vast ignorant m;:9ority, just as in Russia. It is on the same level in a way. 27160. But in Russia you practically have a homogeneous Slave [sic] population, which you have not in this country?- I thought you meant that you put the difference between the ignorant and the educated, and not the difference between various com munities. 27161. That was the main consideration in my mind. I should like your opinion upon any portion of my question which you would care to give an opinion upon? – I think, roughly speaking, as one speaks in great generalities, that I might say, yes, it is the same interest. In the general sense in which the question has been put my answer is that it is the same. 27162. In your answer to question (4) you say: “I would adopt the system of recruitment to the exigencies of modern times so as to give a wider scope for satisfying the legitimate aspirations of Indians and the fullest development of their talents.” Now, apart from any suggestion which you have already made, have you considered any method of enlisting, say, the scions of good families, with local influence? Let me put it in this way. For instance, Lord Curzon started the Cadet Corps, for enlisting in military service: could you think of any scheme for enlisting in the Civil Service men of local influence, who would be a great help to the British Government if they could be brought in? Something like the Cadet Corps – yes, I think it rriight be done with advantage. 27163. It would be a great help to us if you, in your position, could give us some suggestion of any method by which that class might be gathered in? – Places like the Rajkumar Colleges might be increased all over India. · 27164. As a matter of fact, have students of the Rajkumar Colleges enlisted to any extent in the Indian Civil Service? Unfortunately they cannot. They are not Natives of India. That is the misfortune. 27165. But you think that if similar Colleges were instituted within British territory we might get hold of men of that stamp? -Yes, I think so. And if social influence could be brought upon parents and relatives to send their children there, that also would be an advantage; because many of that class, the moment they have sufficient to live upon, have not sufficient incentive to do anything. 27166. Would it be of immense benefit, both to the Govern ment and to the country generally, if public spirit could be developed in that class to the extent of making them join the Indian Civil Service? – I think it would be a very good thing, the very best thing. 27167. Having regard to the fact that for a considerable number of years many students under the simultaneous examin ation system would not get into the Service, and, on the other hand, even if a large proportion got in, they would be compara tively small in relation to the whole number of students competing, do you think that any dissatisfaction which is nowrelt would be allayed by your suggestion? -Yes; I think it would shew that it was “a fair field and no favour”. It would open the door. 27168. Do you mean that a concession would be made to sentiment? -Yes; and in some cases it would greatly help certain classes. It would very much help some very brilliant boys of comparatively poor parents who are too proud to go and beg from other people in order to pay the expenses of sending their children to England. Now, the only poor people who go there are without much spirit of self-respect. In my position I have constantly had people asking for that kind of thing, help and assistance for sending their children to England, while similarly good people would not do that, for they are too proud to ask. It would give those boys a chance. 27169. With reference to the British tone which you think it desirable to maintain in the Service, do you think we can ever perfect our machinery so highly as not to depend at all upon the personality of the official? – The human equation will always remain. There will always be the human equation. It is one man and another; and it will always make a difference. 27170. There is this about it, that if there were defects in the machinery the personality of the officer might correct that; whereas, if there was a defect in the personality of any officer, no perfection in the machinery would compensate for that? No doubt a very bad man might spoil any machinery, and a very good man could improve anything. 27171. Is it not a necessary inference from that that it is absolutely necessary to maintain a strong personality rather than merely perfecting machinery that would work automatically? – 1 am taking the average. The average human being is neither one extreme nor the other; so that good machinery would make the average work better. 27172. With reference to the increase in salaries, of which you are in favour, you have referred to residence in towns? – Yes. 27173. There are two distinct questions, the one is the relative expensiveness of living in towns, and, on the other hand, the general increase in prices all round. Would not an increase in salaries all round be better on the one hand, while a house allowance, or something like that, might be made for town resi dents? It is not necessary to entangle the two questions. They are quite distinct. One regards the rise in prices everywhere, and possibly we may not come to a conclusion about that until the Prices Commission has issued their Report. Do you not think it is wise, regardless of town residents, to raise the salaries all round with reference to the rise in prices? – No, I do not think so, because, in some districts, although prices have risen as to necessities there has been no great increase in luxuries in the same way as there has been in towns. In districts so-called luxuries have not become de facto necessities; so I do not think that that alone would justify a rise. 27174 . Would you not really be in favour of a house allowance in towns? – I am in favour of a rise in pay in towns. 27175. Not pay, but house allowance. That would remove them from the general question of the rise in prices? – Yes, I might give house allowance; but I would prefer to give a man a round sum, and let him get along for himself. If he had a house allow ance he would be all the time worried as to whether his house was equal, or not, to the allowance he gets. 27176. You have said that districts vary with regard to prices.

You do not think you can take in a general view the fact that there has been a rise, it may be more or less in some places, but has not there been such a general rise as to make it desirable to raise salaries? – I think the mere rise in prices has not been sufficiently great to make that necessary; but I think the rise in the amenities of life, in addition to the prices in towns and important places, has been so great that it would necessitate a rise in salaries. 27177. (Mr. Macdonald.) With regard to the training of Indians in England from the age of 14, you have expressed general views about it. Supposing, as a matter of fact, this system were adopted, and that we gave scholarships and sent them over to England, and brought them back here as members of the Indian Civil Service, would it, in your Highness’s opinion, very largely improve the character of the Indian section of the Indian Civil Service cadre? _I am taking it as an impossibility. I am very much opposed to the whole thing. I think it would be a bad suggestion. 27178. Would you dot your i’s and cross your t’s by answering that question? Supposing, as a great misfortune, that system were adopted. In your opinion, and from your knowledge of the young men, both Muhammadan and Hindu, who have gone over to England at the age of 13 or 14, do you think that the Indian section of the Indian Civil Service would be much improved? Judging by those examples which I have seen (of course I have seen only limited examples) there would not be many. I do not think it would be improved, judging from those I have seen. 27179. And so far as objections are taken to the capacities of c __, the existing Indians in the Indian Civil Service, you do not think there would be any improvement if we adopted this method? What are the objections taken to existing Indians? 27180. I do not want to go into that?- Unless I know what the objections are I cannot answer you. 27181. There are certain objections that they have not got enough of the characteristics of Englishmen, that they are very good officers in many respects, but that in crisis they are not quite so reliable as they might be. I am thinking of the whole bulk of evidence which has been placed before us. The proposal is that in order to eliminate the experience – deficiencies – this scheme should be started. Do you see the position? – It is very hypothetical. The system has not yet been tried. I have no reasons, from the examples I have seen of those who have been brought up in English schools, to imagine that they would be so very different from other Indians of the same age and class. That is all I can go on. 27182. That is all I thought you would be able to say, but I wanted to get it so far as that. With reference to the changes you propose in the Syllabus, I suppose your assumption is that only the Indian candidate would take Persian; or do you assume that the English candidate would also take Persian? – I should like the English candidate to take Persian. I think it would be a very good thing if he took it; but I think, on the whole, an Englishman is much more likely to take French or German.

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27183. At the same time, you think it would be far better if English candidates had a little more knowledge of Oriental culture? -Yes, I think it would be a very good thing. It is greatly needed. 27184. Let us look at it from this point of view. If the English candidate, after having spent time in acquiring a knowledge and a sympathy with Eastern culture, should happen to fail in his examination, and never get into the Indian Civil Service at all, that would be rather a bad plan, would it not? – Yes, it would be a very bad plan. 27185. How far would you agree with this conclusion, that it is far better to select your subjects for the open competition from a somewhat less specialised series of subjects, and then give a much longer time for probation after they have passed their open competition, and during that time of probation introduce your English candidates to Eastern civilisation and Eastern culture? – You mean that after he has passed he should get into touch with Eastern civilisation and Eastern learning: that would be one way; and in the case of Englishmen you might give them more marks for Arabic and Sanskrit than for Persian if they took it up. 27186. I should like to get your opinion about it. The theory about this open competitive examination is that when a man fails he has not wasted time in preparing for it which will not be useful in adopting other means of livelihood: that is the funda mental theory? – It would be a good thing. 27187. My suggestion to you, in order that I may get your opinion, is that we ought to rigidly keep to that so far as the open competitive examination is concerned, but that we should meet your point, namely, to bring the Englishman _into closer contact with Asiatic culture during the period which we call the probationary period. What I should like your Highness’s opinion upon is, do you think the Commission would be well advised if it went upon these lines, that far more care should be taken after he has passed to introduce him to India in all its aspects? – To its intellectual and ,sthetic aspects, yes. I think it would be very good. 27188. And therefore that we should be; perhaps, better advised if we laid emphasis upon Persian, and all that it stands for in your mind, during the probationary training, rather than lay emphasis upon it before the open competition has been passed? – Yes, I think that would be a good thing too. 27189. If you do that you do not compel the English candidate to waste a certain amount of his time, assuming that he is unsuc cessful? – If you say before he passes, I follow. I understand that you put Oriental learning on the same level as, say, the grand tour of Europe. I think that is a very good thing for the European. 27190. Have you thought it out? If you work out the two periods of the candidate’s career, before he has passed his open competition, and after he has passed his open competition, but before he goes into active service, if you would draw the line between the period of the open competition and the period of probation, and if you have got the idea that I suggested to you about making the probation a full training in Oriental experi ence, must not you reduce the age at which the open competition is held?- At present the probationary period is two years. One year you were going to give to Oriental training, as I understand. 27191. At present it is one year?-Well, then, you will have to reduce it, yes. 27192. You would have to increase the probation? – Yes, you will have to increase the probation, and do away with the Oriental learning from the curriculum. 27193. If my mind was running very much upon these lines, your Highness does not see very much objection to it? – I approve of it on this condition, that afterwards there was the Oriental learning. I think it would be a good thing that they should know more about that. 27194. And in that probationary period you would not only bring in Persian, but Indian Economics and Indian History, and Indian Administration? -Yes, and the best literature that existed, the best literature of the country. 27195. There is one question which I should like to ask you, which is germane to this, and I am sure your Highness will assist me by throwing some light upon it. In the Indian Civil Service cadre, in its completeness, you say that the European element must be represented, not merely by men trained in England, but by Englishmen? – Yes. 27196. Then in your idea there should be another section which is not going to be denationalised Indians? – That is so. 27197. But Indians who understand England? – Yes, .I ndians who understand England, that is so. 27198. Indians who are not palmed off as Englishmen? – Yes, like Englishmen who understand Germany. 27199. Therefore the problem which we have to face, whether we do it successfully or not, so far as the Indian is concerned, is how to select by competition and by subsequent training Indians who will understand English methods, but who will come back to India with their foundations no [sic] India. That is a very general proposition. Do I understand that your Highness agrees with it? From that fundamental proposition a great many things follow? – Do you ask, how you would bring that about? 27200. Do you agree that that is the problem? -That is the problem of the country, of course. The question is, how to do it. 27201. You agree with that sort of general idea which I have been putting before you? – Yes: an Indian who actually is an Indian, and has remained an Indian, and yet who has got the spirit of the West, and who realises how an Englishman would look upon things. 27202. (Mr. Sly.) How many years have you been President of the Moslem League? – Since its foundation. 27203. In what year was it founded? -In 1906 or 1907, I am not quite sure of the date. It was really formed in 1908. It was being formed between 1906 and 1908 .. 27204. Can you tell me whether the Moslem League has con sidered the question of simultaneous examination, or not? – It is being considered by all the branches of the League I believe at this moment. 27205. And by the Central Committee? – They began con sidering it when I was at Lucknow. 27206. Have they considered it on any previous occasion? No, not at all; now it is on the tapis. 27207. You contend that under simultaneous examination very few Indians will get in for some years? – Yes. 27208. If that result were to happen, do you think that it will raise any political problem of importance in the country? If this examination was held in India, and it was found that practically no Indians were successful, would there be any great political disappointment in the country? – If they are sensible men, and reasonable, there ought not to be. It is their own fault if they cannot get in. 27209. You say if they are reasonable? -Reasonable and sen sible people would come forward and tell them. There would be two sides. When people are reasonable certain men always stand up against them, even in India. 27210. You have suggested to us that instead of the 6 per cent. of Indians who are at present in the Indian Civil Service, the number might be raised to 10 per cent., and gradually increased up to 20 per cent.?-Yes. 27211. In making that recommendation, have you considered the fact that there is at present a certain proportion of Indians already recruited for superior posts, by means of what is known as the listed post system? – I say in addition that I would not take in half of the listed ones already given. 27212. At present the listed-posts held by Indians are about 8 per cent. of the superior posts; and, of course, if we include the inferior posts, the percentage is very much larger. Is the 10 per cent. that you recommend, irrespective of the number of listed posts altogether? -Yes, irrespective. 27213. Can you give us any maximum that you would suggest for listed-posts and direct recruitment? – There might be one or two per cent. increase of listed-posts and then it could be increased to 10 per cent., and then to 15, and then to 20 per cent. by and by. 27214. But you have not considered the question of percentage by joining the two separate factors together?- No. I have not. It is a very simple sum to work out. 27215. It comes out to rather a surprising result. You have given us an opinion largely in favour of the education of Indians in India preferably to sending them home to England as young boys?- Excuse me, not as an abstract proposition. 27216. Having regard to this opinion of yours, with regard to Indians educated under Western methods in India, failing simultaneous examination, do you think there is any suitable method of direct recruitment to the Indian Civil Service which could be adopted in India? – It could be devised, of course. I have not thought carefully of an alternative method, but it could be devised. 27217. Are you prepared to help us with any suggestion of an alternative method? – The only good one I have so far read is that of Mr. Natrajan’s in the Indian Social Reformer. I think it is a very good alternative. It is the only alternative I have so far heard suggested. 27218. And that is the one you suggest for our consideration? – Yes, as an alternative. That is the only one so far that I have come across. 27219. In your answer to question (19) you have suggested that Indians should be promoted to Commissionerships, and even to Lieutenant-Governors if suitable? -Yes. 27220. I wish clearly to understand to what point you refer in your answer. There is no bar at present on an Indian member of the Indian Civil Service rising to those posts? -No, there is no bar: I hope no bar will be placed. 27221. But it is not any change that you recommend?- No; there cannot be any change. You cannot force them to appoint men. If a man comes up, and if he is sufficiently good for it, let him be appointed. 27222. You do not desire any changes upon that point? – No, except that if a man turns up and he is good, by all means appoint him. 27223. He is eligible at present, is he not? – Yes. You leave it as it is. 27224. I wish to understand your scheme of probation and training a little more clearly. For successful Indian candidates for the Indian Civil Service, do you recommend one year at the University?-Yes. 27225. Followed by one year’s travel in Europe? – Or in America. I would give him the choice. 27226. And for the English successful candidate what do you recommend? – I rather approve of Mr. Macdonald’s idea that his two years should be spent in India more or less studying Indian Literature, and Indian History, and Indian Economics, and travel ling about India generally. 27227. Two years in India? – A few months to begin with he might spend outside. 27228. Not spend one year at the University in England? -No.

He is supposed to be sufficiently imbued with that. 27229. Then you refer to what you consider to· be certain drawbacks in the training of Indian Civil Service men in districts.

You say: “I think young officers should not be first of all sent to districts”?-I mean men who have never been in a big city should not be immediately sent to districts. 27230. You think that the first training of European members should be in towns? – Yes, or near a big town; what I call the refined parts of India. 27231. Do you not think that if the European Civilian’s training was upon those lines, he would fail very much to get into touch with the ordinary agricultural problems, and peoples of India? Be is sufficiently young to learn still; and he would not be any older than he is now. 27232. The system hitherto followed has been, as far as pos sible, to keep them away from large Presidency towns, and send them out into districts so as to get close in touch with the agricul tural conditions and peoples of the district. Do you now wish to reverse that policy? – Was it ever a policy, or did it grow up? The fact that he was very junior was the cause of his being sent straight to a small appointment. Naturally he went there. Was it a question of policy? 27233. It was a practice? -Yes, it was a practice. 27234. And you wish to change that practice? -Yes. He is only on probation for two years, and his probation is to be in India. 27235. (Mr. Gokhale.) The views set forth in your written answers are, strictly speaking, your own?-Yes, entirely. 27236. At the same time, can you tell us to what extent they are shared by leading members of your community? – What do you mean by “my community”? I suppose you mean by the Mussalman community of India. 27237. Have you had any means of knowing what views are held with regard to the matter by leading members of the Moslem League? – I have naturally discussed it with all the Mussalmans ‘ of some importance whom I have come across. 27238. In Bombay or elsewhere? – When I was up country at Lucknow I had the opportunity of speaking to them. 27239. To what extent are these views shared by the leading members?-What do you mean by “these views”; which portion? 27240. Those about simultaneous examinations? – On that point I do not think I have heard a single voice against it. Every Mussalman I have asked about it up country has been in favour of it. Of course I did not cross-examine them as you are cross examining me. Asking them generally, they were all in favour of it. 27241. That is enough for my purpose. Has the Bombay Presi dency Moslem League expressed any opinion, do you know? – I believe it has sent in a written paper, but I have not read it. 27242. Do you know what that opinion is? – No, I have not read it; and I do not quite know what it is. 27243. I believe it is in favour of simultaneous examinations.

You yourself advocate simultaneous examinations? – Yes. 27244. And, at the same time, you do not propose to lay down a minimum for Europeans today?- No. 27245. Because you think the danger of Europeans falling below the required number is exceedingly re~ote?- That is so. 27246. It is really a theoretical danger only? – That is how I look upon it. 27247 . And the same theoretical danger exists today? – Yes. 27248. Because if a large number of Indians go and compete in London there is nothing to prevent them? – As a matter of fact, there are thousands who can afford to send their children, but who do not. 27249. The Government have allowed that danger to remain unprovided against? – Yes. 27250. And you would deal with the other danger in the same way? – Yes, exactly. That is why I said that there is no need for putting it down. 27251. I see you insist upon Indians who get into the Indian Civil Service passing the same examination, having the same papers, and the same everything? – Yes. 27252. Is that because you insist that Indians who get into the Indian Civil Service should be on a footing of absolute equality with the English members? – Yes. I think that there should be a fair field. There should be the open door, really, and putting them on the same level. 27253. If Indians were promoted exclusively, or almost exclus ively, from the Provincial Civil Service to the Indian Civil Service, and placed on the same level as suggested by Sir Valentine Chirol, do you think they would be regarded as the equals of the English members of the Service? – I think if all men came in on that line, at once the public would say, “Those are the Indians, and those are the Europeans”. But, certainly, if some get in exactly like Europeans it would be a good thing. 27254. You would want them to come in in the same way as the English? – That must be natural. There should be no racial bar. 27255. If members come exclusively, or almost exclusively, from the Provincial Service, do you not think there would be some thing in their previous official upbringing which might militate against their asserting their equality with Englishmen? – I think the exclusion of Provincial Service men would be a great mistake. 27256. You mentioned an alternative scheme suggested by Mr.

Natrajan? -Yes. 27257. Will you tell us briefly what that scheme is, because I have not seen it?- I only saw it quite recently. It comes really to this, that M. A. Graduates of the Indian Universities who have got a certain amount of recommendation as to their general character, and so on, from the Principals of their Colleges, and who have got a proper training, might then pass in from that examination quite apart from the Indian Civil Service one; and out of those that pass Government might nominate some. 27258. Government nominates in the end? – I am not quite sure that Government nominates, but it is a system by which at the end few get in. 27259. Is it open competition at the end?- Yes, I believe so.

On general lines I thought it was a good alternative. I think the scheme is good. 27260. (Mr. Chaubal.) In answer to question (2), I see you advocate the levelling up of the scale of marks as regards Sanskrit and Arabic and Greek and Latin. I suppose you are not particular as to how the levelling up is brought about – either by raising Sanskrit and Arabic to the same number of marks as Greek and Latin or by bringing down the marks fo,r the latter? – I would rather see Greek and Latin brought down, and Sanskrit and Arabic raised a little. I would prefer that, but I do not hold very strong views upon it. 27261. What you want is that they should be on the same level? – I think it would be a good thing, but I do not hold strong views upon it. 27262. You do not strongly hold the view that the levelling up must necessarily be by raising Sanskrit and Arabic, it may equally be done by lowering Latin and Greek? – Yes. 27263. Some questions have been put to you with regard to crammers’ institutions starting up in India?-Yes. 27264. Do you know if crammers’ institutions in England are patronized by Indians, or do Englishmen go to these institutions? – I have already said that I do not know much about cramming institutions. I have heard most about them from Army Officers who have gone to crammers, so that it must be Englishmen. 27265. I mean Englishmen who have come in as Indian Civil Servants? – I suppose they go to such institutions, but I have never asked them. 27266. I am under the impression that they do go; but I wanted to know from you whether when the Indian Civil Servant comes out here the public find any traces of the evils of his having studied at a crammer’s institution. Do you find from your experi ence of Indian Civil Servants, efficient servants of the Government, that they disclose any of the evils of having studied in the crammers’ institutions in the past? – No. 27267. I ask you that because I have heard some Englishmen say that they profited immensely from their education at cram-. mers. Do you think it is easy to start a crammer’s institution like those in England? – It would be a tremendous business. 27268. It is a work which would cost an immense amount of money in order to be able to get the same sort of teachers and lecturers as they have at crammers’ institutions at Home? – Yes, it would be a very big business. 27269. You have been asked about the policy or the difficulty of posting Indian Civil Service men from different communities? -Yes. 27270. Is it not the policy, generally, of Government to appoint a Bombay man to some other Presidency, and the man who belonged to that other Presidency to some other district? – You said “communities”. 27271. The question was put to you whether if a person of one community became an Indian Civil Servant persons of other communities would not object. It is with reference to that that I ask you whether the present policy, more or less, is not that you generally do not post men from the same Presidency?-Naturally, because you want an independent man. 27272. With regard to the fear which I find is very generally entertained about the larger number of Indians, the .proportion you are contemplating of 10 or 20 per cent. disturbing the British tone of the administration, you say that out of 1,294 Civil Servants there are at present only fifty-six Indians? – Yes. 27273. Can anybody find out that the British tone of the admin istration has been in the slightest degree injuriously affected by the admission of those fifty-six people?- No. 27274 . Do you suppose that if those fifty-six men were to rise to one hundred there would be a chance of their injuriously affecting the British tone of the administration? -None whatever, even if the number were a hundred and fifty. 27275. As regards this question of the larger employment of Indians in the Service, you were asked whether your community supports the demand by the Indian public for a larger employ ment. Am I right in supposing that the interests of your community, in this general question of the larger employment of Indians, are identical with those of all the other communities in India? – By “my community,” do you mean Mussalmans, or my own community. 27276. I mean Muhammadans as a body? – All the Muhamma dans I have spoken to are in favour of simultaneous examinations with the exception of one Government officer. All the others are in favour of it. 27277. The question is one of such general interest that it does not affect any particular sect or community. The question of the larger employment of Indians in the higher Services is of equal interest to all communities? – Yes, I think so. 27278. You were asked by Mr. Madge about the interests of the ignorant millions and the interests of the infinitesimally small educated portion of the Indian public? – Yes. 27279. Can you understand in what sense the interests of the small educated portion of the Indian public are in conflict with the interests of the ignorant millions? – No, I cannot. 27280. Can you conceive of any direction in which they might be? – I cannot conceive it in this vague way. I can ;conceive the interests of two individuals of any race being opposed, but I cannot conceive of it in this vague way. 27281. With regard to the larger salaries which you recommend for the Provincial Civil Service in your written answers, you were asked as to whether it would not do if there was a house allowance made for residence in towns. I suppose you are aware that the general body of Government servants in the Provincial Service, although they are themselves serving in the muffassal and not in big towns, still, generally have to keep a residence in town for the education of their children. It was suggested to you that instead of increasing the salaries all round as regards these Prov incial Civil Servants, it would do if you gave a house allowance to such of the Provincial Servants as resided in towns. That I think, was put to you by Mr. Madge. I am putting this question to you, whether it is not a fact that in your experience the majority of the Civil Servants, although they are not serving in towns but in talukas, have more or less all of them residences in the nearest district towns for the purpose of educating their children? – That is so. 27282. And therefore, although they are living in the muffassal, the increase in the amenities of life, and the increase in the cost of living, affect these servants, notwithstanding the fact that they are not residing in towns? – I think in some cases it does. A man must be of a certain age, and advanced to a certain position in the Service, by the time he has the need of sending his children there. 27283. I am putting it in this way to ascertain if a rise in the salaries is not necessary even in the case of persons who may not themselves be serving in a district town? – Yes. I think there might be a slight rise. If he is living in a town he has to entertain, and i,t is much more necessary. 27284. What I wish to point out is that it must not be con sidered unnecessary simply on the ground that a man himself is not living in a town? – No, that is not the only reason for considering it. 27285. (Mr. Madge.) I should like to say that the suggestion attributed to me was not attributed by me: I was in favour of both increases. 27286. (Sir Theodore Morison.) I should like to have your recom mendation with regard to Persian made clear. I think you suggested that it should be in the open competition examination before probation? -Yes, before probation. 27287. You agree with the suggestion of Mr. Macdonald that for Englishmen it might be advantageous that they should study Persian during probation? – Yes. 27288. And that therefore for them it was not particularly important that it should be in the open competition? -Yes. 27289. There still remains the question of Indian competitors, does there not? – Yes. 27290. Do I understand that you recommend the introduction of Persian on the ground that it would help Indians, or because Persian contains a literature, as old, as rich, and as good a vehicle of culture as, we will say, Italian? Which of those two is it? Is it on the ground that Persian on its merits is as rich a vehicle of culture as Italian, or is it because Indians know it? – It is on account of its wealth as a language and its historical traditions; and, to a great extent, it would be of great assistance to a Hindu who went into the Service afterwards. 27291. It was agreed to leave that sort of consideration out of the question in talking to Mr. Macdonald, because if a man fails to get in we do not want him to get into a cul de sac: the thing is to be on the ground of general education? – Yes. 27292. And as a vehicle of general education, Persian is, in your opinion, fit to stand on a level with Italian? – Yes, I think so. 27293. Therefore it would be differentiated from the Indian Vernaculars which have not such a rich literature?- Exactly. 27294. It is upon its merits as a cultivated language? -Yes. 27295. And if its modem literature does not compare with French and German, it may at least compare with Italian? – Yes. 27296. Arising out of your answers to your written questions, and what has been said around this table, I understand you desire that the Civil Service should remain for some time to come predominantly English? – Yes. 27297. You think it would be a good policy if a certain number of Indians could be advanced to very high posts in the Civil Service?-Yes. 27298. Do I understand that that is the policy which you have mainly in view in your recommendation? – Yes. 27299. If so, are simultaneous examinations the best way of attaining that end? I will put it in another way. Supposing we could devise a scheme which will attain that particular end rather more surely than simultaneous examinations, would you prefer it? If it got a small number of Indians into the higher pos1;8 rather than a larger number of Indians without any security that they would rise higher, your simultaneous examinations do not seem to me to offer any guarantee, or any likelihood, of Indians attaining those posts which you have indicated you would like them to attain? – If you could devise a better means I should be in favour of it. 27300. Is it that you want simultaneous examination as some witnesses have said, as being good per se, or do you advocate it so as to attain a definite policy, which is that some Indians should rise to very high posts? – I advocate it as a means of arriving at that policy. I think it is a very simple and a very direct way, and it would leave no bitterness afterwards. It will not be like nomination. It will not leave any bittemess afterwards. 27301. My own doubt is whether it will attain that end. With regard to the answer which you gave to Mr. Gokhale, you said that the Mussalmans you have spoken to have been in favour, generally, of simultaneous examination? – Yes. 27302. Have they generally added a reservation or rider to the effect that they would like a certain number of posts reserved for Muhammadans?- Those I have spoken to at Lucknow said that they were in favour of simultaneous examinations. They wanted an open door and no favour. 27303. They do not want any posts reserved? -No; with the exception of the one Government official in Bombay which I mentioned. With that single exception they all said that so far as the Indian Civil Service is concerned they did not want any reservation. I was doubtful myself, to a great extent, upon that point, and it was more for my own personal satisfaction that I asked the question. 27304. You found that that opinion was general? – Yes, the opinion was general amongst themselves. 27305. Were they the younger members of the community?

A mixture. Many will probably be witnesses before the Com mission, but I do not know. I was at Lucknow at the time. 27306. I understand that your objection to the present system of examination is that the English door is a handicap to the Indians, that it puts the Indian at a disadvantage?- I do not say that that is my chief reason. It puts some deserving Indians at a disadvantage, say poor men of respectability with sons. There are some people that Englishmen least meet with, and they are just the people who avoid officialism. They are not of the pauperized lot, people who would object to taking charity. 27307. At the same weight the Englishman would generally beat the Indian, and therefore there is no advantage in handicap ping the Indian? – Exactly. That is what it comes to. 27308. Do you not think that if you want to retain Englishmen in the Service some sort of handicap will eventually be necessary, because it will always be pleasanter for a man to serve his own country than any foreign country?- It is not necessary. 27309. It is not necessary for the Englishman to protect himself for serving in Whitehall, because there will be so little attrac tion for the Indian to go and serve in Whitehall. If you are going to get an Englishman to serve out of his own country, surely in time you will have to give some sort of preferential advantage, otherwise he is sure to be ousted by the people to whom he is a much greater attraction: more people will compete? – If there was any danger of his being ousted I would reserve at once so many appointments for him. 27310. Are you going to give him any kind of preferential treatment: is there anything less invidious than at present? – We do not want to give him any kind of preferential treatment. 27311. You must either help him to get in, or give him better pay? – I have advocated a general rise in all cities. I think Sec retaries to Government, and so on, should have a rise in pay to begin with. Those who get in would not get these appointments for another 25 years; and so for 25 years it would be Englishmen alone who would benefit by an increase of pay. Any increase of pay in the higher posts would benefit Englishmen, and I think it is right that it should be so. 27312. (Lord Rnnaldshay.) When you were asked what your opinion would be with regard to reducing the age limit for the examination, I think you said it would be no use bringing out boys to this country? – Yes. 27313. I should like to know what you mean more definitely.

Would you consider a person of the age of 21 or 22 to be a boy? – I think that a person of 21 or 22 would have no experience; and to be left in a district is a great responsibility at rather a too early period of his life. 27314. Were there any complaints on that score when the members of the Indian Civil Service did come out to this country at that age?- That was a good deal before my time. I think now that the people here are used to more developed men these young people would not carry the same weight as men of more advanced age. 27315. But do you not think, perhaps, that a man who came out at the age of 21 or 22 would come out with an open mind, and that he would find it easier to adapt himself to the conditions out here than a man of 24 or 25? – No; I prefer 25. 27316. Mter your answers to Sir Valentine Chirol, I am not quite clear in my mind whether you think scholastic examination is the best method or not of testing the capacity of an Indian for administrative work? – I do not know an alternative. 27317. The alternative is selecting men of tried merit and ability from the Provincial Service; and I rather gathered from what you said to Sir Valentine Chirol that you thought of those two methods that of seeing men work in the Provincial Service, and testing their work there, was more likely to prove satisfactory than a mere scholastic examination?- That is to a great extent so. If you limit it to that, I fear there would be an invidious distinction, and you would put up a partition between the two races, which would lead to the needless racial irritation of colour bar in the life of the country. It is for this reason that I think the other door should also be left open. Of course I should prefer guarantees if there were need for them. 27318. Of course I am assuming that the English door would be left open. Even if you promoted men from the Provincial Civil Service, and if you were to institute a system of scholarships, 1 do not necessarily say scholarships at the school-boy age, but, possibly, scholarships at the University age, which would give Indians greater facilities for passing the examination in England, would not those two avenues into the Civil Service prove satisfac tory from an Indian point of view? – I am bitterly opposed to all scholarships. It is not the business of Government to help individuals. It is the business of parents. I am bitterly opposed to anything which pauperises them. 27319. You are opposed to a scheme of scholarships on prin ciple? – Yes. It is not a charitable organisation at all. I am an individualist who regards that with great opposition. On principle I would not consider scholarships. I bitterly resent that peasants and the ryots should be taxed for the children of people who live in town, and that those who have influence with officials should get advantages. I bitterly resent any scholarships of that sort. If anybody wants to help them, let him do it out of his own pocket. 27320. With regard to Indians being eligible for higher posts in the Service, such as Lieutenant-Governorships, and so on, if you had the appointments of Lieutenant-Governorships at the present time, are there any Indians whom you would appoint?

I am sorry I have not got the appointment of them. 27321. I know you have not. I am asking you on the assumption that you had? – When you take the social question as well I should not at present know. Take Bengal. He would have to entertain and so on. As a social question I would not know. 27322. We have to recognise, however unwillingly, that there is a certain amount of antagonism between the two communities in India, the Muhammadans and the Hindus. The question I want to ask you is this. Do you anticipate that there might be in any parts of the country administrative difficulties arising out of a Hindu being posted to a position of authority over a population which was largely Muhammadan? – That has existed now under the present rules for fifty years. It is not as if you were introducing a new principle. 27323. Under the present system does it often happen that you have a Hindu to rule over a Muhammadan population, and . ’11’ vice versa? – It has been so. Take the case of a Collector: with three Collectors around who are Englishmen. One is a Hindu and the other is a Muhammadan. The very fact that three were around him and were Englishmen, and were able to keep their places in order, would keep him in check? 27324. I quite admit that; but that is under the present system when there are a very small number of Indians in the higher posts. I am asking on the assumption that if simultaneous examin ation were established the proportion of Indians must become greater? – I am opposed to anything that would increase it; and I do not advocate guarantees, because there is no need of guarantees at present. 27325. (Mr. Heaton.) Supposing we had simultaneous examin ations, do you think that those who passed in India would stand any lower in general reputation than those who went to England and passed there? -I think unless they were sent away for two or three years, they would probably: that is, if they had not had the opportunity of living in Europe. 27326. The mere passing of the same examination, if they passed in India, would not put them on quite the same level in the opinion of the public of India?- Not unless they had some European experience afterwards. The expense should come out of their own pockets. To a great extent they would have a position by that time. They would have a stake in the country, and they could borrow, and do other things on their prospects, through Insurance Companies. 27327. Have you considered at all what subjects you would advocate as compulsory subjects, supposing we had simultaneous examinations: perhaps you have not thought of that? – No, I have not. 27328. (Mr. Joglekar.) In answer to question (54) yoy have said – “I do not think that the Muhammadans are adequately represented in the Provincial Civil Service.” To what branch do you refer, to the Executive or the Judicial branch? – To both. 27329. On what principle is the statement that they are not adequately represented based? – Look at Sind; look at Eastern Bengal! 27330. What is the principle?- Population, of course. 27331. (Sir Valentine Chirol.) I do not quite understand a reply you gave to Mr. Chaubal. Did I understand you to say that you think it is quite impossible that the opinions and desires of the small educated class in India would ever be in conflict with any other community, or with the masses of the population? – It might arise when a portion of the educated community would have class interests against a section of the masses. 27332. (Mr. Chaubal.) My question was from the point of view of administration? – I cannot conceive it from the point of view of administration. 27333. (Sir Valentine Chirol.) I presume you have modified your view since, as President of the Moslem League, you sanctioned very strong representations to be made with regard to the com plete inadequacy of the representation of Muhammadans in the administration? – But that was as far as legislation is concerned, and as far as the lower branches are concerned. In the Provincial Civil Service I strongly held it, and I still hold it. It is only with regard to the Indian Civil Service, where there is at present no such guarantee, that I think that we need not bother about it.

But as regards the Provincial Civil Service, I strongly believe to the present day that there ought to be. 27334. The representation of the Moslem League never dealt with the representation of the Muhammadan element of the Civil Service?- No, never. I do not think so, because the Civil Service was not at that time, even three or four years ago, under dis cussion. 27335. There was quite as much discussion with regard to the Indian Civil Service as there was with regard to the Provincial Service? – But the Provincial Civil Service was always in a state of change and flux. (The witness withdrew).

Source: Royal Commission on the Public Services in India, Appendix to the Report of the Commissioners, Volume lll: Minutes of Evidence Relating to the Indian and Provincial Civil Services Taken at Bombay from the 1st. to the 12th. March 1913, with Appendices, His Majesty’s Stationary Office, London, 1914, Cd. 7579,-pp. 54-69.

The Commission which was appointed on 5 September 1912 and which reported on 14 August 1915, consisted of Baron Islington (Chairman), Earl of Ronaldshay, Sir Murray Hammick, Sir Theodore Morison (Council of India), Sir Valentine Chirol, Mahadev Bhaskar Chaubal (Member, Governor’s Executive Council, Bombay), Abdur Rahim (Judge, Madras High Court), Gopal Krishna Gokhale (Member, Viceroy’s Executive Council, died in 1915), Walter Cunny Madge (Member, Viceroy’s Executive Council), Frank George Sly, Herbert Albert Laurens Fisher (Fellow and Tutor, New College, Oxford) and James Ramsay Macdonald. Abdur Rahim’s name does not appear in the list of members who submitted the Report.

The findings and recommendations of the Commission were published as the Report of the Royal Commission on the Public Services in India, His Majesty’s Stationery Office, London, 1917, Cd. 8382.

For the history and problems of the public services in India see George Chesney, Indian Polity: A View of the System of Administration in India, London, 1868, 3rd edn 1894; L. S. S. O’Malley, The Indian Civil Service 1601-1930, London, 1931; Edward Blunt, The I.C.S.: The Indian Civil Service, London, 1937; Philip Woodruff (Philip Mason), The Men Who Ruled India, London, 1952-4, 2 vols; Hira Lal Singh, Problems and Policies of the British in India, 1885-1898, Bombay, 1963; Ralph Braibanti ( ed.), Asian Bureaucratic Systems Emergent from the British Imperial Tradition, Durham, 1966 (essay on India by Bernard S. Cohen); Lepel Griffin, “The Indian Civil Service Examinations”, Fortnightly Review, April 1875; A. J. Balfour, “The Indian Civil Service – A Reply”, Fortnightly Review, August 1877; Lyon Playfair, “On the New Plan for Selecting and Training Civil Servants for India”, Fortnightly Review, July 1877; Theodore Beck, “The House of Commons and the Indian Civil Service”, National Review, May 1894; W.

Doderet, “The Training ofi.C.S. Probationers and ofJunior Civilians”, East and West, July 1913; H. G. Keene, “The Indian Civil Service”, East and West, January 1913; E. S. Montagu, “The Indian Civil Service”, The Civil and Military Gazette, Lahore, 26 and 30 January 1923 (reprinted from The Times, London); Henry Wheeler, “Men and Policy in India”, Fortnightly Review, August 1936; Lord Templewood, “The Men who Shaped a Subcontinent”, Manchester Guardian, 4 March 1958; Abdur Rahim, “Indians in the Public Services”, Indian Review, February 1917; “The Services and the Reforms: Their Constitutional Rights”, The Civil and Military Gazette, 21 September 1921; and the following unpublished theses: S. C. Parasher, “The Development of the Indian Civil Service”, Ph.D., University of London, 1947; Muhammad Rafi Anwar, “The Recruitment of Indians into the Covenanted Civil Service oflndia, 1853-1891”, M.A., University of Manchester, 1960.