Date: 24 October 1933
Location: London
Speaker: Aga Khan III
Source: Speeches of Aga Khan III – K K Aziz
Full Text
Indian Constitutional Reform London: 24 October 1933 The White Paper scheme a result of discussions at the Round Table Conferences and consultations between representatives of Indian opinion and the British – those behind the proposals are respons ible to millions of people in India – the main goal of the scheme – the autonomy of the provinces – the federal system – the attitude of the Princes. 15,024. Mr. Churchill, you are aware that the White Paper Scheme is the result, not only of many discussions at the Round Table Conferences between the Princes, their Representatives, Indians of all sections of opinion, Hindus of every important school of thought, the official representatives of the Muslims, who have behind them the overwhelming support of the Muslim Community, the Sikhs, and the Representatives of the Depressed Classes and Labour, but that the White Paper Scheme has come out of a long series of public and private discussions between them, the Secretary of State, the Prime Minister, the Lord Chan cellor, ex-Viceroys like Lord Irwin and Lord Reading, and that the authorship of this White Paper is really the result of the experience of people drawn from all conceivable elements that could represent India. On the other hand, your scheme has behind it for authorship a small number probably of experts whose knowledge of India is not up-to-date, none of whom has had recent experience of responsibility, and yourself who, in the midst of your many very important activities and so on, could not have given except very slight attention to it; and you have what I may call a cursory knowledge. Now of the two schemes, if you were alone asked by Parliament as a responsible individual which one you were going to recommend, which one would you recommend? – I do not think this matter can be settled at all by trying to pile up expert authority on one side or the other. This is a decision which is sought from the British Parliament, and the British Parliament does not consist of experts upon India; a great many of them have not had the opportunity of serving out there or of serving in high positions. It is a decision which is asked from the Sovereign Assembly under the Crown in this country, and I do not think it is to be settled apart from a free use by the Members of both Houses of their own good judgment.
They have to weigh the different assertions that are made by the experts and high authorities on the one hand or on the other, and I certainly do not feel myself bound because two ex-Viceroys are in favour of the scheme to suspend the discharge of my duty as a Member of the House of Commons. 15,025. You have not really understood my question, I think, Mr. Churchill. Those behind the White Paper Proposals are not merely experts: they are, many of them, responsible to millions of people in India. The Princes are not experts. They are rulers of vast States, and they think that this scheme is likely to work as well as any scheme can work for India, as far as we can see. That is the Indian side of it, and they have convinced responsible British opinion. Are you ready to tell Parliament that this scheme has not any support behind it other than that of two ex-Viceroys? – If that argument is valid, why is the Joint Select Committee sitting? 15,026. The Joint Select Committee is sitting to sift it as far as it can, but it must pay some attention to the fact that the author ship of a scheme for a Constitution for India should have some Indian responsibility behind it as well? – I think all opinion should be weighed as far as possible, but I am not prepared in any way to admit that because these consultations took place at the Round Table Conference and because a lot of discussions have gone on between the Secretary of State and various gentlemen and notabilities and Princes, the function of Parlia ment is in any way impaired or the responsibility of Parliament in any way diminished, and I, of course, base myself upon the recent statement of the Secretary of State that we are uncom mitted. 15,027. Would you say that it would be a good thing for India to have a Constitution in the authorship of which no important section of Indian opinion or Princes or classes or communities took any kind of moral responsibility? – It would not be a good thing, but neither would it be a good thing to establish prema turely a Federal system before the units which are to compose it have come into being and without regard to the solution of a great many difficulties attendant upon it. When I am told that there is a great body of Indian opinion gathered behind this scheme it is quite true that a large number of Indian gentlemen and statesmen are moving along in support of the scheme, but with very different purposes and with a very different voice, and a very large number of those who accept this scheme for the time being accept it only as an instrument of machinery to lead to something very much larger. 15,028. That is inevitable, of course. No scheme that had not the possibilities of a future development in it would be accepted.
This scheme has those possibilities; it is not being accepted. The kind of people who are advocating this are not the people who want to use this only as a step forward for agitation. It is only a scheme out of which the country’s commercial and agricultural prosperity could be developed further and general peace gained during the next decade? – I must take exception to my friend the Aga Khan’s use of the expression that I have a scheme – that it is my scheme. 15,029. The alternative scheme? – The basis of the proposals with which I associate myself is the Report of the Statutory Com mission which did not establish the Federal system at the Centre, but which did in fact, under some reservations, propose to transfer Law and Order in the Provinces. All I do is that I suggest that that transference should be effected only in the manner which I have ventured to define. Then there was this additional point about inspectorates which is intended to be helpful and to co-ordinate the working of the transferred services in the dif ferent Provinces, but that does not constitute a scheme at all. In the main, all that I have said rests entirely within the scope of the recommendations of the Statutory Commission, and so you have not a right to brush it aside and say these are only the opinions of one man, with a few aged Indian administrators whom he may have consulted. On the contrary, this is a Commission of Parliament appointed for the purpose; it went to India for three years, and saw everybody, on which the three Parties were repre..; sented, and on which the three Parties gave a unanimous Report.
You cannot brush it aside like that. 15,030. There is another question. According to the scheme of which you approve there will be autonomous Provinces, will there not? – Yes. 15,031. Do you think that the present Centre, as it is now, with a sort of isolated Viceroy and Executive drawn half and half from Indian and from British officials, with a huge Assembly, always criticising, without responsibility, is a better Centre to meet these Provinces than a Federal Centre in which the Princes and all the important sections of Indian thought and opinion are repre sented and who are behind the Viceroy and in which he has got a much larger influence? – I have not the slightest doubt that the proposals at the present time to establish a Federal system for India will be fertile of friction and in inconvenience and that the existing system, in spite of its disadvantages is far more likely to enable us to get through this period, when the Provinces are being brought into existence as autonomous entities. It would be, in my opinion, a most dangerous thing to introduce a principle of dyarchy at the Centre and summit of India at this time. Surely it would be only reasonable to carry out one great forward step in the Provinces by itself and await the result of that step before the Federal solution is taken. 15,032. You think that the Government of India as at present constituted will be better able to deal with autonomous Provinces than a Government which has behind it the support of the Princes and the new elements that are being brought in? – You say the support of the Princes. I do not wish to go into that in very great detail, but I have heard a great deal one way and another about the support of the Princes and about misgivings on the part of the Princes and about pressure put upon the Princes. I have heard a great deal about that, and I am not at all prepared to assume that there is a fierce demand on the part of the Princes of India for this departure. When this matter comes to be debated in Parliament we shall then have a proposal before us, no doubt for a Federal Constitution. It will be presented in the precise language of a Statute. I have not the slightest doubt that it will be possible to apply to that proposal far more dam aging criticisms than any that can be laid against the present system which, with all its defects, is at the present moment func tioning and working. 15,033. Without the autonomous Provinces. With regard to the Princes, I will leave it to my friends here, but do you know of any individual Prince who would give way to pressure of that kind and would not speak up? Do you happen to think that there are any among your acquaintances who would do anything like that? – I was very much pained to see that the Jam Sahib was silenced by the Viceroy when he was unfolding arguments which seemed to me very right and worthy to be stated as a contribution to this discussion. It grieved me very much, and I may say the grief was widespread throughout this country – especially, when that episode was so swiftly succeeded by his untimely death.
The Aga Khan.] I do not wish to ask anything more.
Sir Samuel Hoare.] Perhaps I might clear up the misunder standing that Mr. Churchill’s last observation may leave in the minds of some Members of the Committee. The incident to which he referred was very different in actual practice from what he actually seems to think.
The Aga Khan.] Hear, hear!
Sir Samuel Hoare.] The Jam Sahib was under the impression that it was the moment at which to make a speech about Feder ation. That was not the case. The Viceroy stopped him because the particular speech was obviously out of order upon the occasion, which was the reception of the report of the Princes delegation at the Round Table Conference. I am not disclosing any confidence when I say that the Jam Sahib himself fully realised that fact and afterwards assured the Viceroy that he fully accepted his ruling, and he thought that in the circum stances it was a very good ruling.
Mr. Isaac Foot.] Is not it right, too, that at the Round Table Conference the Jam Sahib was one of the strongest advocates of the Federal system?
Sir Samuel Hoare.] Certainly.
Witness.] But, after all, this speech which was not delivered on that occasion because it was out of order had already been published, and no one who reads it can possibly contend that it did not contain very grave words of warning, falling from one of the best known of the Princes of India, and I believe at that time the President – is it not so? – of the Princes Association.
Source: Joint Committee on Indian Constitutional R.eform (Session 1932-33), Volume 2 C: Minutes of Evidence Given Before the Joint Committee on Indian Constitutional Reform (Questions 8,681-11,209, 12,055-12, 720, 13,549-13,691, 14,400-15,362, 15, 777-17,339) and Before Sub-Committees A, B, C and D of the Joint Committee Together with Appendix D, His Majesty’s Stationery Office, London, 1934, pp. 1842-5. Parliamentary Paper H.L. 79 (II C), H.C. 112 (II C).